My life is sometimes chaotic. I have 3 kids...18, 14 & 13. Teenagers. Enough said.
Sometimes I feel like a maid, a cook, a taxi driver, a teacher, a doctor/nurse, therapist, disciplinarian, a judge and yes....sometimes I even feel like a parole officer! In the end, it's all good. I'm tired, and gray haired but there isn't anything special about that. Aren't we all tired? And if we live long enough, we'll all be gray.
I try to do all sorts of things leading up to Advent. Then, during Advent, I try to do many more things. Let's face it, it's a busy time of year. Some years I'm more successful at pulling these "things" off. More times than not, I suck. I'm a colossal procrastinator and I rarely finish anything I start. You have no idea how many journals and planners I've begun on January 1st....and lost interest on the 3rd. Too many to count.
This is going to be one of those "leaner" years. I'm simply out of steam. Thankfully, my kids are older and require a lot less fuss. Still, Advent has always been and always will be, a spiritual thing. Contemplating the time in history when the Son of God was born, in the flesh, is significant and this fact tends to get "overlooked" by most.
Sometimes, I just sit and stare at the manger scene. It fascinates me. I try to imagine being there...what it might have been like. For me, as a Catholic, what happened on Christmas and what happened on Easter, is everything.
So, in light of all of that, I want to share with you today a simple way of preparing for Christmas. I say simple, because it is and it's all that I'm going to do this year. Really. Of course we have traditions that we will always do (St. Nicholas Day, Advent Wreath, decorations, baking etc), but this will be the ONE THING that I will do for myself. Give yourself the favor of praying a Christmas Novena.
Friday, November 30, 2018
Monday, November 26, 2018
Being Thankful
Today is the Monday after Thanksgiving 2018. Truthfully, it was pretty much the same as many of the Thanksgivings I've celebrated. You know the drill....turkey, stuffing, mashed potatoes, cranberry sauce, green beans...and the list goes on. My sister-in-law hosted...again. Her house is large and we had over 20 people there! My small house couldn't handle it.
This year was special though, as we also celebrated my father-in-law's 90th birthday! It was a wonderful day and he is an incredible man. After we had eaten, and after he had opened all of his presents, he made a little speech. He said that after 90 years, he knew he did something right when he looks around and sees his family. 4 children, 14 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild. He talked about how when he was younger, he would look in the mirror every morning and say to himself "Do your very best today". And then, at the end of the day, he would return to the mirror after contemplating his day and say, "you DID do your very best today". The thing about this little speech was....no one was listening. After he had opened the last present, everyone returned to their conversations. Some returned to the football game on T.V. But I was listening. He made me tear up. What a special man. My husband and his siblings have no idea how incredibly blessed they are to still have BOTH of their parents. They just celebrated 65 years of marriage. They are both 90 years old and going strong...albeit slightly slower.
My father died when I was 17. I miss him just as much today as I did 36 years ago. My mom died in 2006, I was 41. I'm 53 now....parentless. My only sibling, my sister, died in 2015. I feel like I'm orphaned. Yes, I have a loving husband and 3 children who I adore. I have extended family and many friends who I love as if they were family. But, there is something missing in my life.
As I contemplate the things I'm thankful for in this holiday season, I don't want to lose sight of my many blessings. Today, I am most thankful for this family that I married into....specifically my husband's parents. I have no idea how much longer I'll have with them, but I will enjoy each and every moment. Life circumstances took my parents way too young, but God has allowed me two beautiful people to step into their shoes for the last 21 years of my life. I couldn't be more grateful.
This year was special though, as we also celebrated my father-in-law's 90th birthday! It was a wonderful day and he is an incredible man. After we had eaten, and after he had opened all of his presents, he made a little speech. He said that after 90 years, he knew he did something right when he looks around and sees his family. 4 children, 14 grandchildren and 1 great-grandchild. He talked about how when he was younger, he would look in the mirror every morning and say to himself "Do your very best today". And then, at the end of the day, he would return to the mirror after contemplating his day and say, "you DID do your very best today". The thing about this little speech was....no one was listening. After he had opened the last present, everyone returned to their conversations. Some returned to the football game on T.V. But I was listening. He made me tear up. What a special man. My husband and his siblings have no idea how incredibly blessed they are to still have BOTH of their parents. They just celebrated 65 years of marriage. They are both 90 years old and going strong...albeit slightly slower.
My father died when I was 17. I miss him just as much today as I did 36 years ago. My mom died in 2006, I was 41. I'm 53 now....parentless. My only sibling, my sister, died in 2015. I feel like I'm orphaned. Yes, I have a loving husband and 3 children who I adore. I have extended family and many friends who I love as if they were family. But, there is something missing in my life.
As I contemplate the things I'm thankful for in this holiday season, I don't want to lose sight of my many blessings. Today, I am most thankful for this family that I married into....specifically my husband's parents. I have no idea how much longer I'll have with them, but I will enjoy each and every moment. Life circumstances took my parents way too young, but God has allowed me two beautiful people to step into their shoes for the last 21 years of my life. I couldn't be more grateful.
Wednesday, November 21, 2018
Just Wondering
I'm seriously contemplating returning to this space. I feel like writing was therapeutic for me. I didn't always use the right words or construct the best sentences, but I was speaking from the heart. I always felt as if a weight had been lifted after posting. Perhaps it's time to begin the journey...again.
I'm not so sure that people even read blogs anymore. When I started my blog, 10 or so years ago, Facebook was just beginning. Since then, social media has boomed and communicating is much easier, albeit less personal.
I guess it isn't important if anyone reads my words. But, it will be important for me to write them. So, on this day before Thanksgiving 2018, I will continue my search for the Joy in the Journey.
I'm not so sure that people even read blogs anymore. When I started my blog, 10 or so years ago, Facebook was just beginning. Since then, social media has boomed and communicating is much easier, albeit less personal.
I guess it isn't important if anyone reads my words. But, it will be important for me to write them. So, on this day before Thanksgiving 2018, I will continue my search for the Joy in the Journey.
Saturday, October 15, 2016
Update!
I haven't updated in awhile. It's been a crazy month. Here's the latest:
For one thing, we just received the bill for Amelia's inpatient stay last month. The total bill was $4,800.00. Our portion is $2,640.00. Ouch. I'll need to check my benefits for inpatient psych coverage....but the bottom line is...we don't have $2,640.00. Period.
For the past month, Amelia has been either coming to work with me, staying with a dear friend (Thank you Mimi), staying with my mother-in-law (Thank you, Nancy) or she's been at home. I've only left her alone once. I'm not comfortable with that, but on that day, it was a necessity.
We are hoping to have her in a school called "Center Academy" at the beginning of the year. We spent a significant amount of time there a few weeks ago. She seems to like it and I was very impressed with the program, the teacher and the director. However, it's about $14,000 per year. Guess what....we don't have it.
We were able to move up her neuro-psych evaluation from the end of November to the end of this month. Once this comprehensive testing is done, we will know more about what kind of limitations we are dealing with. She had this same eval done back in 2013...which showed a reading disorder, a mood disorder, a behavioral disorder as well as an executive function disorder. Of course, ADD/ADHD was also diagnosed.
Recently, I have been asked by two different mental health professionals, whether or not anyone has ever said the term "Asperger's" to us. Up until that point, no one had. However, the neuro psychologist is going to look into that for us and has some special tests that she will do with Amelia. If, in fact, she finds that diagnosis present, this will open up some funding options for us. There is one particular scholarship that would be available to us if she does have Asperger's. We shall see.
We've contacted and spoken with an attorney. We are waiting for all documentation to be sent to us and once that's done, we will be able to decide how to move forward. A part of me wants to just leave it all alone and move past it....but another part (the bigger part) wants justice for my daughter. There was no reason for her to have been treated the way she was. Every single new document that is sent to us...including the entire medical record from her stay at the Mental Health Resource Center, confirms our belief that there was NO NEED for her to be involuntarily committed. There are inconsistencies in the accounts of what the school said, versus what the counselor said, versus what is written in the medical record. It's all very disheartening...and disappointing.
It is still very hard for me to think about that day. I've had to relive it several times and it is truly a nightmare to do so. I get nauseous and shaky when I drive to the school every afternoon to pick up Nathan and Olivia. Amelia gets agitated too. It's strange to realize that a place can have that kind of effect on me. Amelia and I are both trying to find a place of acceptance about what happened. We will get there.
In addition to all of this, we were hit by Hurricane Matthew last week! We did not sustain any major damage...but our roof took a beating. We have at least 4 leaks in our house at the moment. An insurance adjuster will be out Monday to take a look. Our deductible is rather high so there's no telling how much we'll be responsible for. Only time will tell and the truth of the matter is....you can't get blood out of a turnip. It is what it is and we'll do our best to figure it all out.....unless of course, Jesus comes back soon, in which case...none of this will matter one iota!
I will update again soon. In the meantime, we are trying to enjoy the fall season....such as it is here in Florida.
For one thing, we just received the bill for Amelia's inpatient stay last month. The total bill was $4,800.00. Our portion is $2,640.00. Ouch. I'll need to check my benefits for inpatient psych coverage....but the bottom line is...we don't have $2,640.00. Period.
For the past month, Amelia has been either coming to work with me, staying with a dear friend (Thank you Mimi), staying with my mother-in-law (Thank you, Nancy) or she's been at home. I've only left her alone once. I'm not comfortable with that, but on that day, it was a necessity.
We are hoping to have her in a school called "Center Academy" at the beginning of the year. We spent a significant amount of time there a few weeks ago. She seems to like it and I was very impressed with the program, the teacher and the director. However, it's about $14,000 per year. Guess what....we don't have it.
We were able to move up her neuro-psych evaluation from the end of November to the end of this month. Once this comprehensive testing is done, we will know more about what kind of limitations we are dealing with. She had this same eval done back in 2013...which showed a reading disorder, a mood disorder, a behavioral disorder as well as an executive function disorder. Of course, ADD/ADHD was also diagnosed.
Recently, I have been asked by two different mental health professionals, whether or not anyone has ever said the term "Asperger's" to us. Up until that point, no one had. However, the neuro psychologist is going to look into that for us and has some special tests that she will do with Amelia. If, in fact, she finds that diagnosis present, this will open up some funding options for us. There is one particular scholarship that would be available to us if she does have Asperger's. We shall see.
We've contacted and spoken with an attorney. We are waiting for all documentation to be sent to us and once that's done, we will be able to decide how to move forward. A part of me wants to just leave it all alone and move past it....but another part (the bigger part) wants justice for my daughter. There was no reason for her to have been treated the way she was. Every single new document that is sent to us...including the entire medical record from her stay at the Mental Health Resource Center, confirms our belief that there was NO NEED for her to be involuntarily committed. There are inconsistencies in the accounts of what the school said, versus what the counselor said, versus what is written in the medical record. It's all very disheartening...and disappointing.
It is still very hard for me to think about that day. I've had to relive it several times and it is truly a nightmare to do so. I get nauseous and shaky when I drive to the school every afternoon to pick up Nathan and Olivia. Amelia gets agitated too. It's strange to realize that a place can have that kind of effect on me. Amelia and I are both trying to find a place of acceptance about what happened. We will get there.
In addition to all of this, we were hit by Hurricane Matthew last week! We did not sustain any major damage...but our roof took a beating. We have at least 4 leaks in our house at the moment. An insurance adjuster will be out Monday to take a look. Our deductible is rather high so there's no telling how much we'll be responsible for. Only time will tell and the truth of the matter is....you can't get blood out of a turnip. It is what it is and we'll do our best to figure it all out.....unless of course, Jesus comes back soon, in which case...none of this will matter one iota!
I will update again soon. In the meantime, we are trying to enjoy the fall season....such as it is here in Florida.
Sunday, September 18, 2016
Our New Normal
Last Monday morning, I woke up and felt relatively normal. It's strange, really, how that happens. I jumped out of bed even though I felt a little sluggish (which is normal for me on a Monday). There was nothing out of the ordinary. My feet hit the floor. I took about 3 steps...and then, I remembered. I remembered the nightmare we are living and the heaviness returned. In a split second, it all came flooding back.
They had said they would most likely discharge her on Sunday. We never got the call. I had talked to the nurse at about 1:00pm. She said the doctor was doing rounds then and as soon as he'd seen her, someone would call us. By 7:00pm on Sunday, I was frantic! Perhaps I shouldn't have waited 6 hours...but...they were holding my daughter against my wishes....they held all the cards. I didn't want to sound crazy or unreasonable. I was trying my hardest not to FREAK OUT, but it was all I could do to keep it together.
Being at work was hard. I have to work, but focusing on my job was almost impossible. Unfortunately, we need both of our incomes in order to survive. I'm the one that carries the benefits and so, I had to be there. I have never experienced the clock moving as slow as it did that day. Torture.
They called at about noon time, telling me she was being discharged and we could pick her up! I called Dan...he met me at home and we went together. She was happy to see us. We signed some papers, they gave us her clothing in a brown paper bag and handed us her shoes. She hadn't worn shoes (other than those prison shoes) in 4 days! She said she was hungry. We went to get something to eat. On the way home, she told me a horrific story. One of the girls that was in her "unit" was there for attempting suicide. Apparently, she gave Amelia instructions on how to properly slit her wrists if she ever wanted to end it all. The young girl told her to "make sure you hit the main artery, that way you'll die quickly". My poor baby. I am crushed that she had to hear that. I am angry that between the school and the dimwits at the Child Guidance Center, they exposed my daughter to this....NEEDLESSLY! I have no idea how this experience will effect her now....or in the future. This is a trauma that may not show itself for many years. Only time will tell. All I can do is pray for God's protection over her heart, her mind and her soul.
She is adjusting to being home. She was glad to see Nathan and Olivia. Even the dog was excited to see her! To be honest, I'm not sure I'll ever let her out of my sight again....other than with close family and friends...who we trust.
We had hoped to get her into the partial hospitalization program here near our home. We went in to talk to them on Tuesday. However, she didn't really qualify. For one thing, the ages range from 13 to 17...and she's only 12. The other reason is because right now, the group of girls they have there range in age from 15 to 17 and are all there because of a suicide attempt. Because the biggest part of the program is group therapy, the nurses did not think it would be good for Amelia to be in group therapy sessions with those girls...listening to them talk about trying to end their lives. Although I definitely don't want her exposed to that (any more than she already was from being in the hospital), Dan and I were heartbroken. This program was going to last anywhere from one to two weeks and was going to give us some time to figure out what to do next.
Panic again.
For now, I've enrolled her in the Florida Unschoolers association. While this isn't the ideal situation, at least she's enrolled somewhere and the county won't be at our front door. Until we can figure out what to do, she will either be with me at work....or with a family member/good friend during the day. She sees her new therapist this coming Friday. In the meantime, I'll be doing some 6th grade lessons with her to keep her mind working. I don't want her to be too stressed out when we do find her a place, so if I can keep her engaged in doing some school work, perhaps she will transition better.
All I can do is take it one day at a time. Please continue to pray for us because we are in territory that we are unfamiliar with...and frankly, we're scared to death. As I reflect on these last 10 days or so, I think maybe this has been traumatic for all of us and as a family, we have a lot we have to work through. The only thing I know for sure is that I will not throw her to the wolves again! I won't do it! If I have to quite my job, file bankruptcy and stay in a one room hotel....I will, if it will keep her safe, if it will allow her to breathe, if it will allow her to feel normal and happy and not like she's some freak of nature. This is how every school she has ever attended has treated her. I will not let that happen again. Mark my words.
We talk with the attorney on Thursday to decide how to move forward.
Moving forward. I have to keep repeating this in my mind. Maybe if I say it enough, it will be easier to do.
They had said they would most likely discharge her on Sunday. We never got the call. I had talked to the nurse at about 1:00pm. She said the doctor was doing rounds then and as soon as he'd seen her, someone would call us. By 7:00pm on Sunday, I was frantic! Perhaps I shouldn't have waited 6 hours...but...they were holding my daughter against my wishes....they held all the cards. I didn't want to sound crazy or unreasonable. I was trying my hardest not to FREAK OUT, but it was all I could do to keep it together.
Being at work was hard. I have to work, but focusing on my job was almost impossible. Unfortunately, we need both of our incomes in order to survive. I'm the one that carries the benefits and so, I had to be there. I have never experienced the clock moving as slow as it did that day. Torture.
They called at about noon time, telling me she was being discharged and we could pick her up! I called Dan...he met me at home and we went together. She was happy to see us. We signed some papers, they gave us her clothing in a brown paper bag and handed us her shoes. She hadn't worn shoes (other than those prison shoes) in 4 days! She said she was hungry. We went to get something to eat. On the way home, she told me a horrific story. One of the girls that was in her "unit" was there for attempting suicide. Apparently, she gave Amelia instructions on how to properly slit her wrists if she ever wanted to end it all. The young girl told her to "make sure you hit the main artery, that way you'll die quickly". My poor baby. I am crushed that she had to hear that. I am angry that between the school and the dimwits at the Child Guidance Center, they exposed my daughter to this....NEEDLESSLY! I have no idea how this experience will effect her now....or in the future. This is a trauma that may not show itself for many years. Only time will tell. All I can do is pray for God's protection over her heart, her mind and her soul.
She is adjusting to being home. She was glad to see Nathan and Olivia. Even the dog was excited to see her! To be honest, I'm not sure I'll ever let her out of my sight again....other than with close family and friends...who we trust.
We had hoped to get her into the partial hospitalization program here near our home. We went in to talk to them on Tuesday. However, she didn't really qualify. For one thing, the ages range from 13 to 17...and she's only 12. The other reason is because right now, the group of girls they have there range in age from 15 to 17 and are all there because of a suicide attempt. Because the biggest part of the program is group therapy, the nurses did not think it would be good for Amelia to be in group therapy sessions with those girls...listening to them talk about trying to end their lives. Although I definitely don't want her exposed to that (any more than she already was from being in the hospital), Dan and I were heartbroken. This program was going to last anywhere from one to two weeks and was going to give us some time to figure out what to do next.
Panic again.
For now, I've enrolled her in the Florida Unschoolers association. While this isn't the ideal situation, at least she's enrolled somewhere and the county won't be at our front door. Until we can figure out what to do, she will either be with me at work....or with a family member/good friend during the day. She sees her new therapist this coming Friday. In the meantime, I'll be doing some 6th grade lessons with her to keep her mind working. I don't want her to be too stressed out when we do find her a place, so if I can keep her engaged in doing some school work, perhaps she will transition better.
All I can do is take it one day at a time. Please continue to pray for us because we are in territory that we are unfamiliar with...and frankly, we're scared to death. As I reflect on these last 10 days or so, I think maybe this has been traumatic for all of us and as a family, we have a lot we have to work through. The only thing I know for sure is that I will not throw her to the wolves again! I won't do it! If I have to quite my job, file bankruptcy and stay in a one room hotel....I will, if it will keep her safe, if it will allow her to breathe, if it will allow her to feel normal and happy and not like she's some freak of nature. This is how every school she has ever attended has treated her. I will not let that happen again. Mark my words.
We talk with the attorney on Thursday to decide how to move forward.
Moving forward. I have to keep repeating this in my mind. Maybe if I say it enough, it will be easier to do.
Sunday, September 11, 2016
Quick Update
Just want to take a moment to update everyone on Amelia and where we are at this point. I have been chastised by several people telling me that I shouldn't talk about this on FB. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is...whether I post here or on FB....but for now, I'm just going to update here.
We were able to see her yesterday. We had an appointment at 10am for a family therapy session. She walked in wearing the clothes I had brought to her on Friday, but she was wearing "prison shoes". You know...the kind you've seen criminals wearing in news stories. I guess it's just protocol, but it's disturbing none the less. She was quiet but seemed OK. We talked through some things and I finally have a better picture of what happened. We have contacted an attorney and because of that, I'm not going to talk about the details at this time. Just know that since talking to Amelia, I am even more concerned about the way things were handled.
In the end, doors have opened to us that would not have been before this crisis situation. I'm hoping that when we come to end of this part of the journey, we will be in a better place.
As I write this, we are waiting to hear if she will be released today. When we met with the therapist yesterday, she thought today would be the day. I called earlier and they said the doctor was doing rounds now and we would be notified soon. We have a plan for the immediate future and this is a good thing.
We celebrated Nathan's 16th birthday yesterday without her. It was awful. I tried to make things as nice and happy as I could for Nathan, but let's face it...it's not the same. Nathan was a trooper and understood. He told me, "Mom, Amelia is more important right now...and I understand." I love that kid!
Fr. Fred's homily today was interesting. It was as if he was talking directly to our family! It was a God moment.
For now, we are just waiting. I'll update again soon. Thank you all so much for your texts, emails and phone calls. They mean the world to us.
We were able to see her yesterday. We had an appointment at 10am for a family therapy session. She walked in wearing the clothes I had brought to her on Friday, but she was wearing "prison shoes". You know...the kind you've seen criminals wearing in news stories. I guess it's just protocol, but it's disturbing none the less. She was quiet but seemed OK. We talked through some things and I finally have a better picture of what happened. We have contacted an attorney and because of that, I'm not going to talk about the details at this time. Just know that since talking to Amelia, I am even more concerned about the way things were handled.
In the end, doors have opened to us that would not have been before this crisis situation. I'm hoping that when we come to end of this part of the journey, we will be in a better place.
As I write this, we are waiting to hear if she will be released today. When we met with the therapist yesterday, she thought today would be the day. I called earlier and they said the doctor was doing rounds now and we would be notified soon. We have a plan for the immediate future and this is a good thing.
We celebrated Nathan's 16th birthday yesterday without her. It was awful. I tried to make things as nice and happy as I could for Nathan, but let's face it...it's not the same. Nathan was a trooper and understood. He told me, "Mom, Amelia is more important right now...and I understand." I love that kid!
Fr. Fred's homily today was interesting. It was as if he was talking directly to our family! It was a God moment.
For now, we are just waiting. I'll update again soon. Thank you all so much for your texts, emails and phone calls. They mean the world to us.
Friday, September 9, 2016
Preparing
God must have been preparing me for what was to come. He drew me to that scripture study on purpose.
Yesterday, the school Baker Acted my daughter. For those of you not in Florida, this means she was involuntarily committed to a mental health facility. They didn't tell me until after they had done it. From what I can gather, she was not upset or violent in any way, but this stemmed from something she wrote in a journal that she shared with her ESE teacher.
They handcuffed her. She is twelve.
After several hours, I was able to see her. She is scared but being very brave. She is very worried that Dan and I are angry with her. When I left her, she was wearing paper clothes, socks they gave her and no shoes. They placed her own clothes in a paper grocery bag, stapled it shut and put her name on it with sharpie. Just another statistic. They wouldn't let me bring her anything last night....no toothbrush, no clothes, not even her "Snuggles" (the bunny rabbit she has slept with since she was born). They say they can keep her up to 72 hours. She is with about 10-12 other children her age. I have no idea what these other children have done, what they are saying to my daughter or how they are treating her. We won't know anything until a doctor sees her sometime today. She will be assessed and then they'll call us. I'm not even sure I can see her today.
As a mother, I am broken. Truly broken. I can't stop crying. Nathan and Olivia are devastated. My 15 year old son ( He'll be 16 tomorrow) sobbed in my arms last night. He asked me if he could keep her "Snuggles" with him last night. My sweet 16 year old boy...connecting with his sister. We are truly going through the fire of refinement right now. God is working. He is moving. He is doing something. I don't mind admitting that I'm not at all sure about this. I have absolutely no idea what to do next.
My God, how did we get here?
Yesterday, the school Baker Acted my daughter. For those of you not in Florida, this means she was involuntarily committed to a mental health facility. They didn't tell me until after they had done it. From what I can gather, she was not upset or violent in any way, but this stemmed from something she wrote in a journal that she shared with her ESE teacher.
They handcuffed her. She is twelve.
After several hours, I was able to see her. She is scared but being very brave. She is very worried that Dan and I are angry with her. When I left her, she was wearing paper clothes, socks they gave her and no shoes. They placed her own clothes in a paper grocery bag, stapled it shut and put her name on it with sharpie. Just another statistic. They wouldn't let me bring her anything last night....no toothbrush, no clothes, not even her "Snuggles" (the bunny rabbit she has slept with since she was born). They say they can keep her up to 72 hours. She is with about 10-12 other children her age. I have no idea what these other children have done, what they are saying to my daughter or how they are treating her. We won't know anything until a doctor sees her sometime today. She will be assessed and then they'll call us. I'm not even sure I can see her today.
As a mother, I am broken. Truly broken. I can't stop crying. Nathan and Olivia are devastated. My 15 year old son ( He'll be 16 tomorrow) sobbed in my arms last night. He asked me if he could keep her "Snuggles" with him last night. My sweet 16 year old boy...connecting with his sister. We are truly going through the fire of refinement right now. God is working. He is moving. He is doing something. I don't mind admitting that I'm not at all sure about this. I have absolutely no idea what to do next.
My God, how did we get here?
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